Post Freshers LAN discussion

[YegaDoyai]

Right guys here your chance to make a difference, tell us what you liked/disliked about the LAN. It was our first time in that venue and the first event held by the new committee.

Pros:
Excellent venue
Excellent people
Excellent gaming
Excellent rock paper scissors

Cons:
Not enough gaming (we have been able to start gaming in the other venue at 10am due to a Fri setup)
Server issues (will Steam ever play nice?) - lack of server admin on sunday
It had to end :(

[Frosted Nugget]

As far as your Pros list goes, I agree on all counts. This was my first LAN with Pause Gaming, (and, in fact, my first LAN in quite some time), and I was very happy with it. I met a lot of absolutely fantastic people with whom I hope I'll get to see a lot more of while I'm in the UK. The venue was wonderful, (aside from it being fecking freezing early in the morning), and the Rock, Paper, Scissors Tourney was one of the greatest things I have experienced in all of my twenty years on this earth. I hope I speak for the few of us involved that the MarioKarting and the PictoChatting were also quite exceptional.
I can't really comment on the Cons, as I am a wuss and was afraid to participate in the mass gaming, but I'm sure, had I been a little more involved, I would agree with you. Your points seem valid enough. Maybe next time I'll grow some balls, (though, hopefully not literally, because that would be creepy), and get in on the games.
I am hoping against hope that there will be more LANs and events to go to before I have to go back to the States. :cool: - "Sup?"

[--Mogwai--]

Pros:

- lots of folk, both new and old
- lots of folk playing the same games at the same time
- fun mini tournaments, the friendly competition was appreciated, as was the munch for prizes considering how far away the nearest shop was. yes, byres road IS too far.
- largely nothing went wrong, no steam fuckups or bf2 server nonsense, presumably down to availability of internet connection
- bar and pool room and cash machine and vending machines all downstairs.. the venue was incredible compared to williams room, well done whoever hooked us up with the QM, hopefully every LAN can be held there!!!!


Cons:

- disorganised feeling to proceedings at times, even when we got the majority of people into the same server, i.e. playing kubra16... 6 rounds in a row.., or playing cs_italy..ever.. noone being told / knowing how to play source forts .. perhaps an admin mod is needed for map votes, console rules 'reminders', especially if those resposible cant be there at the time ( i appreciate jan was ill on the sunday and couldnt make it in until later )

[Octavion]

I agree with all the pros abaove, the mini cometitions were especially fun.

One con I'd add was the Qm wireless network which led to much steam annoyance. It was all fine after we got the cable ran down from the office upstairs though. I'd advise that the cable is used next time instead of even thinking about wireless.

[phycho]

Pros:
Excellent venue
Excellent people
Excellent gaming
Excellent rock paper scissors

< -- all agreed as above.

Cons:
So god damned cold due to all the windows being open! was freezing in there on the sunday! (heating would be nice)

Internet issues - although i understand that was not down to you guys but the union itself giving you capped crap (6KB/s) internet with extremely limited wireless reception. soon rectified by the cable though ;) nice work!

really, the only negitive i could find was down to the room temp. First pausegaming lan ive been to, and im impressed!

Will definetely be at the next :)

[Uuurrahh]

Agreed with the pros etc

I'm sure most issues, now that we know of them, will be addressed for the next LAN e.g. closing the windows for the cold, running office cable down instead of wireless [fantastic transfer rate, noticed a 400kb/s d/l from Steam], slight disorganisation with servers/games and so on.

Overall very good and all problems are solvable. I'll be along next month for definate. Hopefully not so shit at CS:S :P

[Fyndir]

I think the main problem with Steam arose from the dodgy wireless connection causing Steam to go "I CAN SEE TEH INTARWEBS!!11 I ARE MUST CONNECT!!" and then giving up halfway through or something equally stupid.

Generally we learned a few lessons about using the QMU, and if we use it again we'll apply those lessons to give the LAN +10 cool points, and +5 warm points....

[Ross2006]

Howdy, :),

Ehm same I agree with all the good points!

1st Bad, points I agree far to cold, freezing, lol, especially, for all those all-nighters, like me, lol,

2nd point, u guys really do need mani-admin, on your counter strike server, that was beyond a joke a bit, lol, it makes life so much easier, and better for people who, join server, also, maybe if u guys got some, mods, like deathmatch, and surf maps and all the rest, maybe some gun game mod to make it more interesting

Ehm, 3rd, maybe more CSS tournaments or BF2, More prizes

4th , less dawn of war, lol ;)

5th, maybe as someone else pointed out more organised

Apart from that was good, :)

Also, if my dedicated server was working I could have used some my server configs for CSS :(

[Fyndir]

2nd point, u guys really do need mani-admin, on your counter strike server, that was beyond a joke a bit, lol, it makes life so much easier, and better for people who, join server, also, maybe if u guys got some, mods, like deathmatch, and surf maps and all the rest, maybe some gun game mod to make it more interesting

I was under the impression that Mani was a complete bitch to run on a LAN and that was why we didn't use it, but I don't know if that's still true or if it only has issues running without an internet connection or what.

[Sid]

Well, now that I’ve got the new site online and semi-working, I’ve had a slight chance to sit back and contemplate on the LAN. On the whole, I think it was an acceptable LAN with a lot of positives; however I didn’t enjoy it as much as I’ve enjoyed previous events and I believe that there are lots of negative issues that need to be addressed.

I’ll start with the best point – the new switches. I can’t stress how impressed I was with them over the duration of the LAN. At one point there were 10 people on a Counter-strike: Source server and 3-4 people copying Dawn of War: Dark Crusade over with no adverse affects on the gaming experience. This is a major development from the previous state of affairs where a single person copying a 100mb file over would spike everyone’s gaming. Well done – great investment.

The other major high point was the venue. The QMU is an absolute palace compared to the John MacIntyre building. There are so many advantages to using this venue that I’m sure I’ll forget to mention some of them. The extra space is a huge benefit on its own - we could easily get 50-60 people in there if required. It’s really nice to be able to walk around the LAN without squeezing past everyone and to be able to sit down and eat, for example, at one of the desks in the side area. If I was to continue with the venue praise I could rant on about how great it is to have a shop in the same building, a pub and games room down the stairs and a shop selling hot food and drinks, but we all know how good that was. My general recommendation would be never to go back to the John MacIntyre building if we can continue to use the QMU.

Now, I’ll try and mention some of the less positive parts of the event. I feel it’s very important to bring these up, as the way a group improves is by identifying its weaknesses and addressing them; it’s the way we’ll grow as a society.

The major low was the lack of gaming. I went home on Sunday night with no real memory of any games that I could look back and have a laugh about. I think this was partly due to the fact that there was no real game organisation. I believe that a strict game timetable does not work as not everyone wants to play the same games at the same times, fun games end up running for longer and boring ones for shorter, all destroying the timetable. I do believe however, that a very rough structure i.e. a few big scheduled games (as we tried to do with one big Battlefield 2 game, Dawn of War tournament etc.) is a good idea. I think we maybe just went wrong by not being loud enough with game announcements. Perhaps a whiteboard and even a PA system would be a good idea next time?

As far as I’m aware, the Dawn of War tournament was considered being a success by everyone. However the Battlefield 2 and Counter-Strike games were, on the whole, a disaster. In my opinion this was down to poor administration of the game servers. No offence to Jan, and I’m sure he’s admitted it before, but although his network setup seems spot on, I don’t think he knows enough about the actual games or running servers for them. As a result we were playing terrible maps for a ridiculous number of rounds because they were on the default map rotation. I would suggest giving certain members ‘rcon’ access to the specific servers for administration - perhaps Mogwai for Battlefield 2 and Strings, gor or myself for CS?

Another issue was the fact that Jan didn’t arrive at the LAN until very late afternoon on Sunday and even then, he seemed to disappear to McDonalds straight away. As a result, we had no gaming on the dedicated server for pretty much all of Sunday. I think it’s pretty unacceptable to take responsibility of running the network and then not show for half of it. If you aren’t able to be there for a full LAN you should hand over responsibility to another person for that event. There are lots of other people who could setup and administer the network if you’re not able to do. On a closely related note, I think Windows on the server would be a better idea as then more people would be able to oversee the server should you disappear for a long time. I can’t really see any point in a Linux server for a 2-day event serving 30-40 people. It seems to cause more hassle than it’s worth.

The setup and cleanup at the start and end of the LAN needs to be addressed, too. Gor and I had volunteered to help set up on Saturday morning and arrived at half 9 (already half an hour late, admittedly) to be the first people there, finding the QMU President (Gary, is it?) already there having moved most of the food factory tables and chairs on his own. If we want to secure getting to use the venue again we need to ensure that we don’t add any extra hassle for them. In fairness, I realise that this was probably just a one off because we were all out for Ru’s birthday the night before.

Continuing with the setup and cleanup, I feel that not all of the committee members were contributing with the setup and with helping people settle in and get their computers set up (Strings?). I am aware that 2 of the 5 committee members are major contributors to assisting with transport to and from the event – perhaps if we made a requirement that if you want a lift from these guys you need to come along with them for 9am and stay until the cleanup is complete? It is essential that the committee complete the setup by 11am so that they are there to meet and greet the members, help them out as they arrive and also so that the new members have a LAN ready to arrive to.

I believe all of these issues can be resolved by next month if the necessary people dedicate some time to it and take their responsibilities a little bit more seriously.


Edit: I forgot to mention the room temperature. I felt it was OK for most of the LAN and I was just wearing a t-shirt, however I did wake up in the middle of the night freezing. Maybe if we just close the windows at 7PMish?

[gor]

I was under the impression that Mani was a complete bitch to run on a LAN and that was why we didn't use it, but I don't know if that's still true or if it only has issues running without an internet connection
or what.

Mani mod is teletubby land, it’s dead easy to install and thoroughly details all tweaks - its impossible to go wrong, frankly. The internet connection and the fact we are at LAN has absolutely no bearing on its usage – it’s a basic server plug-in.

The problem with mani mod, as with most plug-ins, is it completely restructures the main configuration. The most basic commands are relayed in some way, usually resulting in poor performance.

Mani mod is nice if you are on a huge online public server with new/ no admins (suits the masses via vote). At LAN, however, you are 10 metres away from a potential admin, and denting the reg is not high on the LAN agenda for something as simple as shouting over. Admittedly the issues at the start of the LAN meant tick rate was ridiculously low for a time. Once the internet was resolved, I felt the server was perfectly fine, though, the running and general admin needs to be more proactive.

I'll write a more comprehensive review shortly.

[Fyndir]

Continuing with the setup and cleanup, I feel that not all of the committee members were contributing with the setup and with helping people settle in and get their computers set up.


I don't know if you mean me or not, I tend to feel that I'm going to fuck something up if I try and get on with what I think needs done during setup, so I end up waiting to try and see what everyone else is doing and what I can do to help with that.

I think a lot of the issues that everyone's mentioning are stemming from Steam being fucked, being in a new building (in the Macintyre most of us know where the tables and such are and what we need to be doing to get set up quickly, just through practice of having done it repeatedly) so if we keep using the QMU the same would become true within a LAN or two and we'd be able to get the setup and cleanup sorted much easier.


I think the thing with Jan on Sunday was that he was a bit ill from eating that cake he was offering around, and then he did a fairly big run to get a bunch of people food.

If someone had given me a shout to run a dedicated server for a particular game I could have given it a try to see how my machine copes with it since I have the dedicated server files for CSS and probably a few other things lying around my hard drive somewhere.

In general there are enough people running dual-core machines that we should be able to (even if we shouldn't have to) run a server for most games for everyone to play on.

Another option would be to have Jan give the comittee lists of commands that we would need to load the machine and get it running a dedicated server, but the risk with that is that we fuck it up and destroy the server, thus ruining the entire LAN. Although that might be the pessimistic side of my personality speaking there. =P

[Ross2006]

There’s is still, some problems with mani on LANs, and with certain, mods, there is a problem as it needs steam id’s to run, certain mods correctly so in mods like gungame, this can get mucked up and when someone goes up a level everyone goes up a level as on LAN everyone’s steam id is the same.

Another problem depending how you configure the admin list if you use steam id’s to determine who is admin, then it wont work on lans *well that’s the way I determine admins on server online in server admin list*, though there is still a solution, just use the IP to determine the admin.

You, said performance Mani tends not to reduce performance, by far it reduces server performance by the smallest amount from other mods I have used. This also, is determined by how good the server spec is, but on, my computer and on server, I have used no really anything, well I suppose the server I had was a jolt server, lol

And as you said, about shouting over, people shouted over all night change the map, nothing happened, also people are wearing headphones how can they hear you, and having game votes really gets the admin to see what everyone wants then there’s no bias. Also, I shouted over change map, I got a reply it will change with the cycle wtf!!???, lol uber noob tactics *anyone that play through cycles is really sad unless it’s an amazing cycle but in standard maps that don’t happen, lol.

Apart from that it gives you guys a more presentable look, like you can control the server, lol , and makes you look not noobish, lol

!!!!! Mani for the win :D !!!!

[Sid]

I don't know if you mean me or not, I tend to feel that I'm going to fuck something up if I try and get on with what I think needs done during setup, so I end up waiting to try and see what everyone else is doing and what I can do to help with that.

Nah, I didn't mean you Fyndir. Hey, you and me were carrying tables, remember? ...I got stuck in the lift with you :cry: lol

Non-committee members need to help out more, too. Yega, gor, Phizz and I seemed to be the only ones. It's our society after all, we make it what we put into it. I think a lot of people don't perhaps realise the work that gets put in behind the scenes. I'm probably going to get a lot of stick for saying it, but I feel it needs to be said.

There's a lot of people that need to pull their finger out and contribute more.

[Strings]

Definitely agree with most of the PROs so far.

Definitely preffered the QM over the Williams Room, although I'm nostalgic so I did miss the old room a little bitty.

Really enjoyed most games that were getting played.

Company was fantastic, especially from the new members.

Plenty of good memories, especially the killer PC in the cardboard box. Was a sight to behold!



As for the cons. They are a little more awkward, as I have to feel partly responsible for them. Will try and address the one that I found most important.

For me, the issue was the setup in the morning. Since we couldn't do it on the Friday, it meant gaming started a lot later than usual. This contributed to a lot of the poor organisation as everything was just out of sync from the late start.

On Sid's comment asking where I was during this time. To that, I had to pick up 4 people. 2 of which that were very far away from the venue. The only possible way I could have made it for the setup would be if I had gotten up at some ridiculous time.

So that's one thing Im going to try and work out better. Because I can't really afford (financially and time wise) to traipse around the place when I should be at the LAN setting up. But as you say, me and Jan are the main lift givers so it's a bit problematic.

A permanent solution such as a bus or something really needs to be sorted out. At least for the local area around the venue. As for people who live far far far away from the venue, I'm not sure I can offer that kind of committment again. Not when the LAN is going to suffer in result.

[gor]

makes you look not noobish, lol

I appreciate you are probably used to mod’s like mani, Ross. But I think you are missing the point slightly. Mani is menu driven – actually making it more “noob" friendly.

You are right that communication wasn’t great. This was down to several factors, limited rcon access being one. I would occasionally prod Strings to change map since he was sitting next to me. But it was very difficult for us, being at the very back, to gather any collective motion. In this situation, i.e. with one rcon user, I can see the advantages of a vote system, though mods should be the last resort. Another factor was the server config, and map cycle – prior testing? I would have provided one if asked – silly of me to assume. These problems, together with your being accustomed to mani, Ross, makes it all too easy to slap “Mani for the win!!!!!” as the answer. Mods are not necessary for smooth running.

Basic proactive admin management is all that’s needed, and to represent the community rather than the next top score – a decent map cycle, a few 2mb customs, mp_maxrounds 20 / mp_timelimit 25 for example, would have kept the maps fresh and teams rotating.

[gor]

The pros all seem agreeable.

- venue, as mentioned several times, spot on.
- new members aplenty
- great numbers on each game.
- network smooth

I enjoyed the weekend, without actually recalling a memorable game. The venue gave the LAN a different atmosphere, which may have sometimes deterred from the gaming.

Was a bit taken aback at half nine when Sid and I arrived to an empty room (apart from the QM president busting a gut) and no committee present. I can overlook the initial disorganised, problematic start to the LAN, what with it being the first LAN, no Friday setup, new venue and Ru’s birthday (selfish cock that he is - at least jan brought cake). But I still felt more could have been asked of some.

I noticed the list of attendees that Ru was using seemed mixed between the fresher’s membership list and the forum sign up – hopefully the new site should help someway to solving this (although just a printed version of the thread would have done). - would be interested to know what the official numbers were for the LAN - perhaps Ru can tell us.

The server trouble was easily avoidable with some basic config tweaks.

[DJ_Evil]

I have taken a look at the pics of the event and it looked really good, it was a shame I couldn't make it due to prior arrangements but if your LAN next month is the weekend after Gumpcom I'm definately going to attend :)

Anyway the problems with steam etc are easy to sort, grab a copy of Mani admin plugin, set the server tickrate to 75 with -tickrate 75 in the .sh file and set the server to run as an internet server with sv_lan 0 in the server.cfg as far as I remember.

Means anyone can admin the server and also includes settings for map voting near the end of the time/rounds allocated to a map :)

Gumpcom has always had the problem of getting everyone in for a big game of something and I have noticed that since you have a lower amount of attendees like our previous LANs, prior to GL10 that you should just try shouting to each other when you are all bored of a certain game, get someone to host a server and away you go :) Works wonders :D

A PA is definately a good idea if you can just get a hifi system or something similar from somewhere, also a whiteboard or a projector connected to a dedicated machine is a great idea

Any other questions guy's don't hesitate to ask

[Ross2006]

I had to pick up 4 people. 2 of which that were very far away from the venue. The only possible way I could have made it for the setup would be if I had gotten up at some ridiculous time.

"me and Jan are the main lift givers"


Hey, I’m grateful for the lift, from both you and Jan, ehm, I forgot to pay you Strings for like the petrol, though, I’ll give you that on Wednesday when I catch you guys. Thanks for the lift, also someone said that people who get lifts should get in early to help, well I wouldn’t mind doing that, but it was my fault as I never got transport or anything sorted early enough but thanks anyways guys. Also sorry about the time :(.

Mani is menu driven – actually making it more “noob" friendly.


When I said more noobish, I never meant it in that way, I just meant that, it is harder for users on the server to check things, and it also seemed to take you, guys sometime to get levels sorted also, with the added stuff in Mani admin, it makes the server look better.

[gor]

Anyway the problems with steam etc are easy to sort, grab a copy of Mani admin plugin, set the server tickrate to 75 with -tickrate 75 in the .sh file and set the server to run as an internet server with sv_lan 0 in the server.cfg as far as I remember.

Means anyone can admin the server and also includes settings for map voting near the end of the time/rounds allocated to a map :)

Once a stable internet connection was established, we had no problems what-so-ever with the server. I think the shitty wireless connection was filtering through to some clients and not others.

Again, theres really no need for mani if the servers are set up properly, and the admins are able. I can understand its usage at gumpcom where the admins are often busy with other things and cant oversee every single map change.

You should definately come along to the next lan dj evil... I'll be sure to wear my full body sponge armour. :)


- frank the tank

[Strings]

Evil be coming if he likes it or not :)

I'm going to take responsibility for not keeping the CSS server in check. I should've taken more initiative and changed the map more often etc. But in my defense, when I did ask.. I rarely got a response save the odd affirmative.

Next time I'll get a maplist properly sorted, both custom and included. At the QM tomorrow hopefully we can come up with some sort of competitive prize worthy way to play it without the teams being retarded, harder than it sounds though.

Now I'm not going to stoop to using Mani Mod quite yet... but I think I will try and work on having a couple of Gun Game competitions. A lot of people seem to like it, and I think it's design is pretty nice for such a thing.

That be the plan. Whoompa.

[Fyndir]

Now I'm not going to stoop to using Mani Mod quite yet... but I think I will try and work on having a couple of Gun Game competitions. A lot of people seem to like it, and I think it's design is pretty nice for such a thing.


How about Surf-Gungame? ;)

OR Surf-RPG-Deathmatch? X'D

[Strings]

Over my dead body ;)

[Fyndir]

Over my dead body ;)

Ok, but on a more serious note, consider Turbo Gungame instead of just Gungame for the LANs.

Gungame = 1 gun per round (with optional knife-kills if you have Knife-Pro running aswell)

Turbo Gungame = New gun on every kill, so if I were to pwn Strings in the face with the level one gun the game instantly removes my gun and tosses me the level two gun.

Generally speeds the game up a bit and makes it a bit more frantic with people able to catch up on the leaders easier if they have a good round. =D

[Sid]

Ru’s birthday (selfish cock that he is - at least jan brought cake).

lol!

Will reply to these posts later, BTW.

[DJ_Evil]

Mani at least menas the people can choose instead of having to wait on an admin, also if the admin is playing antoher game then its easier for players just to do a map vote :D

[CaNNoN_FoDDa]

Sorry i missed the LAN, since you guys seem to need help with setting up i'll try and get there ahead of the next one. I used to work in the QM and know my way around. A lot of the staff will probably remember me (although not the electees) so i can maybe blag keys etc.

Not sure about the PA idea - seems like a lot of hassle for little reward.

[LastChanceHotel]

PA doesn't have to be anything crazy - I mean, a simple set of desktop speakers and a random mic will do an excellent job, if all it's got to do is amplify someone's voice.

[Fyndir]

PA doesn't have to be anything crazy - I mean, a simple set of desktop speakers and a random mic will do an excellent job, if all it's got to do is amplify someone's voice.

I could run that, can easily pack my speakers aswell as my headphones, switch a cable and quickly record a message (or we could have a bundle of messages to be played at random intervals. ;)) and play it back nice and loud.

Admittedly they're SHITE old speakers, but they should do the trick.

[Strings]

I suppose it's worth trying if it aint going to be any bother to set up.

[CaNNoN_FoDDa]

ah, ok - i thought you meant using the qm PA and having someone doing an impression of a bad dj the whole night. Which i would have had to object to, on the grounds of sanity.

[LastChanceHotel]

Having the QM's PA would - although fun - probably make the Food Factory explode.

Fyndir, I think it's best if we use a machine in which the microphone and the speaker output can be used simutaneously. You can turn on the mic in the volume control menu, and it'll be live :)

[LastChanceHotel]

Oh yes, some more ideas for how to do server administration.

First off, run a cut-down Mani with none of the crap on the Source servers. (simple admin menu stuff). Anyone who doesn't like Mani can SMB.

Then, hand out rcon to a bunch of select people, who can change things as and when required, if they can't do it via mani. (or "can't" use mani).

Then I'll make a bunch of 'automatic' scripts for people to run the game server with - these will be one-line-wonders that I can later add to an remote desktop, so people can remotely admin the server without knowing how or why it works.

I propose:

1. CSS Public Server (autoteambalance 1, maxrounds 20, buytime 1 minute, freezetime 10 secs...) - nice map rotation
2. CSS Match Server (get a bunch of scripts like live on 3 etc, bog standard config) - manual map rotation
3. Hidden Server (bog standard also, nice map rotation)
4. SourceForts server (bog standard again, except for maxblocks set to some extrordinarily high number) - nice map rotation
5. Battlefield 2 server (rcon, that nice admin interface Fyndir showed me, a good map rotation too)
6. Quake 4 server?

I also propose putting in a real DNS name for the server... so instead of typing in the IP address, they just type in gameserver.

That's assuming that the 'net works first time, and sv_steamgay is set to 0....

[Sid]

I am against the use of mani. There just doesn't seem to be any point.

And buytime 1 minute is ridiculous. I'd find myself abusing that a lot as I'm sure others would. I wouldn't use autoteambalance either.

Give me rcon and I'll admin the server if you want.

say "what map do you want guys?"
changelevel de_map


I'm no expert on the other ones but providing the map rotation is decent, I doubt there will be any problems.

[Strings]

Don't want autoteambalance or any ridiculous buy time. I'll make the server config and make sure its happy for all.

As for mani mod, I don't want it either but I distinctly remember doing rcon say "What map would you like next?" several times. 9/10 it was just ignored and people kept playing.

Can always try it again next LAN however and just be more persistent.

We don't need two servers. All we need is a config for general play, and the config/plugin to get Gungame working.

A DNS name for the server is an awesome idea, if you got that working it would save some bother if the server doesn't show up in the server list again.

[DAve]

Oh yes, some more ideas for how to do server administration.
1. SourceForts server (bog standard again, except for maxblocks set to some extrordinarily high number) - nice map rotation
GOTO 1

You've got my vote ;)

Seriously, Sourceforts isn't any fun with a high block count. It starts to suck. Go for a moderate block count and only 2 build times / 2 combat phases with fast map rotations. It keeps it fresh

[Strings]

Aye the build/combat phases always seem to drag on for a while. And with a nice normal block count, it means your gonna have to steal blocks from the other team :D

[LastChanceHotel]

Good point with the stealing. I'll make sure not to do anything too drastic.

I'll probably have time to do some tweaking this weekend.